tv // lbd // shoulder touch

Ship. It's what's for dinner.

So...

It's not like I would soil myself by actually going there, but a little bird told me that the little psyche-ward dropouts over on the SDJ board are whining about ship again. Trying to come up with 'proof' that the actors are against it, and engaging in such meaningful and open-minded conversations as

SDJ #1: What's an example of evidence that Sam and Jack have feelings for each other?
SDJ #2: Why, I've never seen any such thing!
SDJ #1: Exactly! That's proof that it doesn't exist!


Cause you know, if there's anything that describes SDJ as a collective, it's "meaningful and open-minded".

Ahem.

So I know this has been brought up before, but what is it with the hard line Denialites and hating SJ? Setting aside for the moment the foregone conclusion that most Denialites are JDers (cause you know, that would be a generalization. Le gasp, le 'eek'!), what is the beef?

Obviously FH had his own issues... I recall some snide comment in an interview about how the relationship was a 'red herring'. And sure, I'm willing to admit that he could have just been referring to the part the ship played in D&C, when in a way it kind of was a red herring to what was going on (i.e. evil Marty), but I'm not about to think that the TSers can reason that clearly. Maybe they just figured they'd pick up the banner of their beloved?

Could it be good old fashioned Sam envy... the kind that has existed in this fandom for years, and has been coming mainly from the hard-line Daniel camp? Do they dislike Sam because they dislike ship, or do they dislike ship because she's the S in S/J?

I don't know... I've seen too many posts, thoughout the seasons, to the tune of "They've been casting the Jack/Daniel friendship aside for this tawdry little Sam and Jack thing!!!" to ignore. It's the same kind of tunnel vision that I believe has been the cause of so many problems in this fandom... the inability of some people to realize that what they like in the show might not be what everyone likes. That where they want the series (and by default, the characters and plots) to go may not be where the PTB want it to go. And instead of dismissing it as 'creative difference of opinion', these people have to villify the 'opposition'. They are compelled to make it 'us versus them', and that's far more harmful than just wanting an actor/character back really really baaaaad.

I won't deny that the Sam/Jack relationship, both on the screen and in my imagination, is one of my favorite things about the show. Yet... if it hadn't been brought to the forefront, I wouldn't have started rallying against the writers et al in a pathetic attempt to get them to write the show the way I wanted. I have the sense to realize that, not only is it pointlessly frustrating, it's not fair to anybody. Nor is it wise. It's turning what's supposed to be fun and positive into work, and hey, it's work enough just finishing fic.

And, trying to bring this back on topic, I don't recall any shippers, during S5, blaming a lack of closeness on another character, much less Daniel. So what gives?
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I have a feeling I'm the last person you want to hear from on this, but...

I've seen too many posts, thoughout the seasons, to the tune of "They've been casting the Jack/Daniel friendship aside for this tawdry little Sam and Jack thing!!!"

If it's true that most of the people you're complianing about are J/D slash fen, then that's not too surprising. One of the things that the slashers loved about Stargate was the fact that there couldn't be any canonical romance between the hero of the show (Jack) and the token female (Sam). That's nothing to do with chemistry or lack of it, just the simple fact of the regs. And it wasn't just because we wanted to live in slash-heaven. It's because it was refreshing to see a show that didn't have sex and/or romance as its driving force. The too-strong emphasis on the Sam/Jack unrequited love thing in season four changed that, and I felt it cheapened the show.

None of which has anything to do with Daniel leaving.

Yes, it's a shame folks can't just live and let live. But, Alli, it is true that somewhere in there, the show was taken in a significantly different direction from previously, and that this wasn't part of the overall plan, but was due to changes in the writing team. When people say it's not the same, that's simply true.
One of the things that the slashers loved about Stargate was the fact that there couldn't be any canonical romance between the hero of the show (Jack) and the token female (Sam). That's nothing to do with chemistry or lack of it, just the simple fact of the regs. And it wasn't just because we wanted to live in slash-heaven. It's because it was refreshing to see a show that didn't have sex and/or romance as its driving force. The too-strong emphasis on the Sam/Jack unrequited love thing in season four changed that, and I felt it cheapened the show.

But it isn't as though it suddenly became the driving force of the show. There were 3, maybe 4 episodes out of 22 that season that used the existence of those feelings as part of the plot. It didn't become the Sam and Jack show. And had it been Daniel and Jack's strong friendship that had messed with the Zaytarc detector, or Jonah and Carlan who had been the best of friends in the mines, would there still be complaining? Of course not. To say that there's a problem just because Sam's a woman... well, remember when we were talking about misogyny? *g*

I just don't get the mindset of oh, thank God, a show where the male and female leads can't get together -- I enjoy a touch of romance in a show, which maybe is one reason I'd never cut it as a slasher. And, just because the leads can't get together, per the regs, where in the credits did it say TPTB couldn't play up the attraction? Which they did... from the first season.

None of which has anything to do with Daniel leaving.

Of course, the two are unrelated.

But, Alli, it is true that somewhere in there, the show was taken in a significantly different direction from previously, and that this wasn't part of the overall plan, but was due to changes in the writing team.

Okay, firstly re: the writing team... yes, they have brought in new writers since S3, and we all know who they are. But with the exception of Glassner, the names at the top have largely stayed the same. Wright, Cooper, Greenburg, Anderson... these are the guys in charge, the people with veto power and control over storylines. They decide on the final product, they control the 'overall plan', and if they decide that final product in episode 90 is going to be different than in episode 9, the more power to them. That's their job, to decide that stuff. IMO, the changes we saw were part of a conscious creative decision, and a result of narrowing the field of writers to a short list. When that happened, MotW (myth of the week) stories weren't so necessary because the people writing the episodes weren't guest writers; they had been there for a good long while and knew the storylines, the characters.

When people say it's not the same, that's simply true.

I'm not saying it is the same. All I'm saying is that people need to get over themselves and realize that the show isn't written to their wishe
But it isn't as though it suddenly became the driving force of the show.

But it did. Alli, I know you don't see that, because for you the relationship was there since day one. And I know we're never going to agree on this, but for me it never was there. And there was no slow build up to D&C that would have made the revelation credible. It was done like a &%$()* sledgehammer, with no real room left for ambiguity - at least on Jack's side.

For anyone who cares about canon, after that the relationship had to be a key element in every episode of the season, whether the episode actually focussed on those two or not. No, it didn't become the Sam and Jack show. But it did stop being about SG-1.

And had it been Daniel and Jack's strong friendship that had messed with the Zaytarc detector, or Jonah and Carlan who had been the best of friends in the mines, would there still be complaining?

Yeah, there would. There was. And is, from you, about fic that focusses on the J/D friendship, isn't there? (Yeah, I know it's different. I'm not trying to score points or twist things around. But if TPTB were making what you call thinly disguised slash, would you still be happy about it?)

A big part of the resentment is we know that can't happen. Television remains horribly homophobic, and even if - as in some other TV show I could name - the writers are fully aware of the subtext in what they are creating, a male/male relationship will never be anything other than subtext. A lot of slash fen (myself included) are strongly anti-homophobia, and the fact that - to put it crudely - Sam can get away with it when Daniel can't, does increase the percieved injustice of it.

Personally, I'm annoyed that here is yet another show where a beautiful woman can't be a major character without a devoted following of men panting after her like dogs to a bitch. That Jack is one of them just makes it worse. I think it's insulting to both of them. (And I mean the canon not the fanfic. Fanfic is totally different.) And I think it's insulting to the audience that TPTB think there's got to be some sex to hold our interest.

But with the exception of Glassner, the names at the top have largely stayed the same. Wright, Cooper, Greenburg, Anderson... these are the guys in charge, the people with veto power and control over storylines.

It's an old argument, but really what has the most importance isn't the big decisions, it's the minutae. Not the decision to move from mild subtext to text, but the how it was done. Not the overall story arc of each season, but the move from episodes about the team to episodes about individual characters who occasionally have SG-1 in common.

people writing the episodes weren't guest writers; they had been there for a good long while and knew the storylines, the characters.

I'm sorry, but I have to say it. Is that why Jack became an idiot who doesn't know anything about science? Even the stuff most people learn before they turn 10? Because the writers knew the characters so much better?

All I'm saying is that people need to get over themselves and realize that the show isn't written to their wishe

About that, at least, we can agree. :-)
For anyone who cares about canon, after that the relationship had to be a key element in every episode of the season, whether the episode actually focussed on those two or not. No, it didn't become the Sam and Jack show. But it did stop being about SG-1.

Sure it changed canon, somewhat at least. But there's canon subtext, too. And last I checked, both Sam and Jack were members of SG-1.

Yeah, there would. There was. And is, from you, about fic that focusses on the J/D friendship, isn't there? (Yeah, I know it's different. I'm not trying to score points or twist things around. But if TPTB were making what you call thinly disguised slash, would you still be happy about it?)

My problem with the 'thinly disguised slash' thing has to do with fic writers and double standards. If TPTB had beefed up the 'buddy buddy friendship' thing, who knows? I would have wanted more S/J moments, I would imagine, but I can't picture myself ranting about how Daniel was distracting Jack from Sam, the 'heart and soul of the show' *eg*

A lot of slash fen (myself included) are strongly anti-homophobia, and the fact that - to put it crudely - Sam can get away with it when Daniel can't, does increase the percieved injustice of it.

Yikes. So having m/f relationships in a show makes the show homophobic? Man, I guess it's a good thing that Sha're bought the farm when she did.

(I guess there's something to be said for just leaving your politics at the door when you watch a TV show. Otherwise I wouldn't know so many conservatives who enjoy West Wing *g*)

And I think it's insulting to the audience that TPTB think there's got to be some sex to hold our interest.

What sex? Did I miss an episode?

Not the overall story arc of each season, but the move from episodes about the team to episodes about individual characters who occasionally have SG-1 in common.

Unhuh. The same people are still in charge of that.

I'm sorry, but I have to say it. Is that why Jack became an idiot who doesn't know anything about science? Even the stuff most people learn before they turn 10? Because the writers knew the characters so much better?

RDA has said himself that he liked playing up Jack's 'denseness', which is something I don't really agree with, but it's his character, so I work with it. I think there's a series of fics out there that come up with some explanation for the 'dumb act'... naturally I can't think of it now..

Personally, I'm annoyed that here is yet another show where a beautiful woman can't be a major character without a devoted following of men panting after her like dogs to a bitch. That Jack is one of them just makes it worse. I think it's insulting to both of them. (And I mean the canon not the fanfic. Fanfic is totally different.) And I think it's insulting to the audience that TPTB think there's got to be some sex to hold our interest.>>

Actually, Daniel's gotten more action than Sam ever has even *thought* about getting, during the entire run of the show. Can't the same lament be made about how a good looking guy can't be on a show without a whole bunch of men/women/whatever fawning over them?

And excuse me. As for "it's insulting for them to think that sex must be present to hold our interest"? What the hell is slash and ship fic there for? For the *stories*?? I'd like to see say.....the most popular three stories in both genres that don't have a lick of sex or romance in them. Then we can see just what the "big deal about a romantic or sexual relationship" is.
Actually, Daniel's gotten more action than Sam ever has even *thought* about getting, during the entire run of the show. Can't the same lament be made about how a good looking guy can't be on a show without a whole bunch of men/women/whatever fawning over them?

Correction: Daniel has had sex. Sam just gets faux-platonic relationships. I think they'd score about even, actually.

That's a different double-standard, of course. And, yeah, I'd make the same complaint. But the difference here is that all of Daniel's "action" has been with minor characters. The Sam/Jack relationship is a whole 'nother thing.

What the hell is slash and ship fic there for? For the *stories*?? I'd like to see say.....the most popular three stories in both genres that don't have a lick of sex or romance in them.

That's Fan Fiction. I'm not arguing for or against the existence of those sexual relationships in fanfic. It's different. Fan fiction serves to extend and enhance canon as individual fans like, and it's a whole different ball game.

What I'm saying is this: Stargate does not need sex and/or romance to be a good show! It was bloody good without all that - in canon - and there's a read dearth of television where men and women are capable of being friends without sex being a factor. I don't like that Stargate "chose" to join the crowd instead of remaining a unique and worthwhile show.

In shows where an intense, non-sexual, friendship is portrayed, there will always, always be fanfiction that turns the friends to lovers. That has nothing to do with my original point. Please don't misquote me.
Correction: Daniel has had sex. Sam just gets faux-platonic relationships. I think they'd score about even, actually.

What do you mean by "faux-platonic"? Don't get me wrong, i understand what both parts of the phrase mean, but I don't get what you're doing with it.

But the difference here is that all of Daniel's "action" has been with minor characters. The Sam/Jack relationship is a whole 'nother thing.

No it's not. Sam and Jack aren't having sex, nor are they in a romantic relationship. I see no problem.

That's Fan Fiction. I'm not arguing for or against the existence of those sexual relationships in fanfic. It's different. Fan fiction serves to extend and enhance canon as individual fans like, and it's a whole different ball game.

You're right. Fan fiction is an *extension* of what is seen on the screen, or what people would *like* to see on the screen. By that definition, fan fic and onscreen are no different. Fanfic writers shouldn't be exempted from the "why can't *anyone* get along and be friends without *sex* being involved" argument, if the argument is that it is an extension of onscreen interactions.

What I'm saying is this: Stargate does not need sex and/or romance to be a good show! It was bloody good without all that - in canon - and there's a read dearth of television where men and women are capable of being friends without sex being a factor. I don't like that Stargate "chose" to join the crowd instead of remaining a unique and worthwhile show.

It still is a unique and worthwhile show. And you're right. It doesn't need sex and/or romance to be a good show. It also doesn't need as many male characters as it does, but those two ingredients are what sells in mainstream television. Take a cue from yourself and others in fanfiction and the fandom in general. Most people aren't interested in the women on a television show, so the women don't get as much treatment as the men do, unless they're written as catty bitches or fag hags(in the case of slash).

And it's still a bloody good show,even considering that "feelings" have been admitted("they've forced it down our throats" or "they didn't mean *sexual*/*romantic*" depending on which day one catches certain folks). The show's suffered in no way because of any kind of relationship between Jack and Sam.

In shows where an intense, non-sexual, friendship is portrayed, there will always, always be fanfiction that turns the friends to lovers. That has nothing to do with my original point. Please don't misquote me.

Even in shows where there *is* intense, *sexual*/*love* relationships between two people, fanfiction is written. It isn't strictly reserved for shows where there is virtually no sexual/romantic interest between people.

And I didn't misquote you. You said the PTB must think we're stupid to think that all we want is sex. Well, judging from the amount of sexual/romantic-related fanfic out there, all we *do* want is sex and romance.

Believe me, I'm not trying to bust your chops here. But the ambivalence between ship-followers and slash-followers is just absurd. There's no reason why one is better than the other. There's no reason to raise arms against the creative team of a show because they want to put something in there, or think that's what will sell their show.

I don't get why heterosexual relationships are so frowned upon by slashers in general, many of whom are heterosexual.(or are lesbian, yet still are wanting to see guy sex-and *not* gal sex--don't get that one, personally.) At any rate, the majority of the population is heterosexual and male-oriented in terms of what interests them, and the majority of the television viewing audience is the same. People want to see relationships they can relate to.

To the smaller percentage of the audience that isn't oriented that way, it sucks the big one. But there you have it. Obviously sex and relationships sell. If it didn't sell, it wouldn't be happening on television.


And I didn't misquote you. You said the PTB must think we're stupid to think that all we want is sex.

You're misquoting me again. I said I find it insulting. Not that they must think we're stupid. It is not the same thing, and I'll thank you not to put words into my mouth I haven't said.

Well, judging from the amount of sexual/romantic-related fanfic out there, all we *do* want is sex and romance.

For the last bloody time, this issue has nothing to do with fan fiction. Fan fiction is written for a small subset of the entire audience of the show, and by an even smaller subset. I am not discussing the motives or preferences of fan fiction writers. I am discussing the writers of the show.

Since, apparently, there is no difference in your mind, this conversation is over.
You know, I always thought you were smarter and braver than that, Morgan. I've seen posts of yours now and then, and you never struck me as a coward or unwilling to debate. I can see now that I was wrong. Please do go on about your jaded existence, and indulge in hypocrisy and inability to see outside your own point of view. Don't bother with discussing it with others unless they agree with you.